Airport diagrams

[denniscormier127]

Why do i have no airport diagrams installed? I have the base subscription and have the charts downloaded. I get some diagrams but most not. According to my listed downloads, no diagrams installed. Please help. Thanks.
Dennis

 

[Don Maxwell]

Most small airports don't have diagrams. Those that do should have them downloaded automatically (I think).

Another issue is whether iFly is set to display diagrams. Go to Main > Setup > Map Settings and be sure that Auto-Show Apt Diagrams is checked. Then you should see them.

Or tap on an airport in Maps. In the window that pops up there should be a View Diagram button. Tap it and you should see the diagram.

 

[denniscormier127]

Most small airports don't have diagrams. Those that do should have them downloaded automatically (I think).

Another issue is whether iFly is set to display diagrams. Go to Main > Setup > Map Settings and be sure that Auto-Show Apt Diagrams is checked. Then you should see them.

Or tap on an airport in Maps. In the window that pops up there should be a View Diagram button. Tap it and you should see the diagram.

Thanks Don. Yes I have done all the above. Two things. When i go to check my downloads under diagrams it says NONE INSTALLED. And, I own a Garmin 660 and it SHOWS diagrams of several local airports like Gainesville GA (GVL). I don't understand why they are not downloaded.

 

[Cobra]

Hello, @denniscormier127 . This is not a problem that is commonly experienced. It may be that no one here will be able to explain or fix your problem, but it's almost certain that no one here will be able to help without more information.

Some information that would be very helpful to understand and possibly resolve your problem:

1. What device(s) you're experiencing this behavior on?
2. What operating system version is(are) your device(s) running?
3. What version of iFly you are using?
4. What are some example airports where you're not seeing the airport diagram?
5. Exactly how are you trying to get the airport diagram to display? (What buttons are you tapping?)
6. Does this "missing diagram" happen on the ground (while connected to the Internet) or only while in flight?

As for iFly's report of which airport diagrams are downloaded, I assume you are looking at Menu > About > Chart Expirations > Airport Diagrams. That appears to be a bug--they all say "Not Downloaded" for my device too. However, I routinely view airport diagrams in the regions where I have downloaded data, both on the ground and in flight, and have not noticed any missing. I will report that error to Adventure Pilot for you.

 

[denniscormier127]

Hello, @denniscormier127 . This is not a problem that is commonly experienced. It may be that no one here will be able to explain or fix your problem, but it's almost certain that no one here will be able to help without more information.

Some information that would be very helpful to understand and possibly resolve your problem:

1. What device(s) you're experiencing this behavior on?
2. What operating system version is(are) your device(s) running?
3. What version of iFly you are using?
4. What are some example airports where you're not seeing the airport diagram?
5. Exactly how are you trying to get the airport diagram to display? (What buttons are you tapping?)
6. Does this "missing diagram" happen on the ground (while connected to the Internet) or only while in flight?

As for iFly's report of which airport diagrams are downloaded, I assume you are looking at Menu > About > Chart Expirations > Airport Diagrams. I don't know that I've ever looked there before, but that appears to be a bug--they all say "Not Downloaded" for my device too. However, I routinely view airport diagrams in the regions where I have downloaded data, both on the ground and in flight, and have not noticed any missing. I will report that error to Adventure Pilot for you.

Thanks for reaching out. Let me answer your questions and then maybe you can help or direct me to someone who can. 1 and 2. I use a Galaxy Tab A7 Android Version 12. All software is up to date. 3. Ifly Version 12.2.34. 4. I flew to Gainesville GA (GVL) a couple days ago and noticed that i did not get an airport diagram upon entry or on the ground. I used my Garmin 660gps and it had the taxiways which i needed. 5. I tried both ways to look at the diagram. Used the zoom in method and the tapped the airport for diagram. Got no diagram found pop up. This airport has 4 runways and multiple taxiways and weather. It has to have a diagram as found on the Garmin. 6. So I tried both in the air and on the ground. Yes, that is where I found that I had no diagrams "installed" as well. Any ideas? Can you pull up GVL for me to see if you have a diagram? Thanks for all your help. Been a loyal customer for years. ;o)

 

[Cobra]

Can you pull up GVL for me to see if you have a diagram? Thanks for all your help. Been a loyal customer for years. ;o)

Yes, I was able to replicate this behavior. However, I think iFly is behaving per its current design. This may be a feature request issue rather than a bug or problem report.

iFly has two ways of showing detailed airport layouts. One is via the published FAA Airport Diagram. However, not all airports get one of those, so if that's not available, iFly shows a "RealView" of the airport, which (I think) is aerial imagery extracted from Google Maps (or something similar).

In this case, KGVL does NOT have a published Airport Diagram. If it did, it would show up here: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/fli...ts/dtpp/search/results/?cycle=2401&ident=kgvl

(You can search for other airports on that FAA site to see if they have Airport Diagrams. For example, nearby KLZU does, and iFly shows it too.)

One other place where airport depictions can be found is in the FAA Chart Supplement (née A/FD), and GVL does show up in there:

https://aeronav.faa.gov/afd/25jan2024/se_222_25JAN2024.pdf

However, iFly does not use the Chart Supplement depictions. If you think it should, you could post that idea in the "Feature Requests" subforum.

I don't know what image your Aera was showing you, or from what source it gets that imagery, but apparently it uses a source other than what iFly uses. For now, all iFly will have for GVL is the RealView image, and the line drawing in the lower-left corner of the Airport Info screen.

 

[denniscormier127]

Yes, I was able to replicate this behavior. However, I think iFly is behaving per its current design. This may be a feature request issue rather than a bug or problem report.

iFly has two ways of showing detailed airport layouts. One is via the published FAA Airport Diagram. However, not all airports get one of those, so if that's not available, iFly shows a "RealView" of the airport, which (I think) is aerial imagery extracted from Google Maps (or something similar).

In this case, KGVL does NOT have a published Airport Diagram. If it did, it would show up here: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/fli...ts/dtpp/search/results/?cycle=2401&ident=kgvl

(You can search for other airports on that FAA site to see if they have Airport Diagrams. For example, nearby KLZU does, and iFly shows it too.)

One other place where airport depictions can be found is in the FAA Chart Supplement (née A/FD), and GVL does show up in there:

https://aeronav.faa.gov/afd/25jan2024/se_222_25JAN2024.pdf

However, iFly does not use the Chart Supplement depictions. If you think it should, you could post that idea in the "Feature Requests" subforum.

I don't know what image your Aera was showing you, or from what source it gets that imagery, but apparently it uses a source other than what iFly uses. For now, all iFly will have for GVL is the RealView image, and the line drawing in the lower-left corner of the Airport Info screen.

Well ok. That makes sense. Thank you so much for looking at it for me.

 

[Don Maxwell]

Thanks, Cobra--and sorry, Dennis. I was wrong in saying "Most small airports don't have diagrams." Some do. Apparently all hard-surfaced airports with instrument procedures have diagrams. That includes non-towered airports with hard surfaces and instrument procedures. So Dennis is right-ish and I was wrong-ish. And evidently iFly is wrong-ish, too--in two ways. See below.

(This opens up a HUGE can of philosophical worms--as I've been discovering in the past few minutes. More about it below, too.)


iFly automatically provides an overhead photo of a small airport when you zoom in a bit or fly close to it.



I can zoom in far enough to see a reasonable amount of detail and pan around to see it all:



The important word here is "automatically," and it's directly related to iFly's design philosophy, that tries to make things seem intuitive for the pilot, especially when in flight. That philosophy inevitably leads to compromises--because we all know that this stuff isn't simple at all.

Anyway, iFly does not display those small airport diagrams--or at any rate, it hasn't displayed them to me, and I don't think it it does download them. Here's why:

If I tap on a "small" airport I find this, with a "View Diagram" button:




Tap "View Diagram" and see:



KFCI has instrument procedures for both ends of the runway.

And it's the same for all similar "small" airports I've tried. So I have to conclude that iFly doesn't have those diagrams. That appears to confirm denniscormier127's observation.

So I think this is a bug and have filed a bug report from within iFly on my iPad Mini 6.


Also, when I zoom iFly in on a "large" airport I automatically see the diagram:



...and I know that it's also possible to see the Realview of the airport, too. I tap on the airport (the green dot here) and then the "More Options" button that appears--to see this menu:



...containing those useful functions, right there, when and where I need them. That seems intuitive, to me.

Hah. So I tap "Zoom to Airport RealView" and get...

YOICKS!

I get nuthin'. It ain't nuthin' there. Whut th--?!!!


Well. Not what I expected.

As Cobra suggested, above, I've also checked Menu > About > Chart Expirations > Airport Diagrams--and all the others. (I'd never noticed it, either.) No light there.

So I've just filed a second bug report from iFly (iPad Mini 6).

Phew. Jeez Louise.


Okay, now for a few worms from that metaphorical can of philosophies I mentioned at the top.

Garmin Pilot (grudgingly) makes it possible to see small airport diagrams if you dig deep enough into the menu structure. For example, searching in Pilot for KFCI gets you this (after you figure out which of many tiny icons to tap on:



It sure looks like an airport diagram.

It's Garmin's answer to iFly's Realview photo. Which of them is more useful probably depends on the pilot and the occasion. But I'd sure hate to have to find Garmin's while getting ready to land there.


In fairness, Garmin Pilot makes it possible to see a higher-res photo than Realview and that can be zoomed out to show the whole world, without leaving the app for an online map. (If you can find it.)

RealView Size:


Zoomed out a bit.


This view would be very helpful in planning a trip in hill country--or even to KGAS, for example, which has an odd hill parallel to the runway such that you can't see the runway from downwind. But I wouldn't want to wait until downwind to discover that--so "planning" is the operative word here.

Well, okay. So Garmin and no doubt ForeFlight has lots of stuff that iFly doesn't--and probably shouldn't--have.

 

[Cobra]

Apparently all hard-surfaced airports with instrument procedures have diagrams.

Not sure where you got this idea, but it's not true. Dennis' example of KGVL is one such. My home airport is another. NOTE: I am talking about "Airport Diagrams", with a capital A and a capital D. Like this:


As I mentioned in reply #6, you can search the FAA chart database (here) by airport code to see what charts are available. There are many airports with instrument procedures and hard surfaces that do not have Airport Diagrams.

Airport Diagrams are the only things that iFly currently uses other than RealView imagery.

As I further mentioned in my previous reply, there are other airport depictions in the Chart Supplement. There are other airport depictions that are somewhere in-between Airport Diagrams and the illustrations in the Chart Supplement that products like Garmin Pilot, FltPlan Go, and AirNav use. But none of those are capital-A, capital-D "Airport Diagrams", and iFly does not use those.

 

[denniscormier127]

Not sure where you got this idea, but it's not true. Dennis' example of KGVL is one such. My home airport is another. NOTE: I am talking about "Airport Diagrams", with a capital A and a capital D. Like this:
View attachment 642

As I mentioned in reply #6, you can search the FAA chart database (here) by airport code to see what charts are available. There are many airports with instrument procedures and hard surfaces that do not have Airport Diagrams.

Airport Diagrams are the only things that iFly currently uses other than RealView imagery.

As I further mentioned in my previous reply, there are other airport depictions in the Chart Supplement. There are other airport depictions that are somewhere in-between Airport Diagrams and the illustrations in the Chart Supplement that products like Garmin Pilot, FltPlan Go, and AirNav use. But none of those are capital-A, capital-D "Airport Diagrams", and iFly does not use those.

Wow! That is a lot of info and digging. Can of worms opened..... now what can be done to help us little VFR pilots wanting to figure out airport diagrams when they are lost on the ground?

 

[Don Maxwell]

Not sure where you got this idea, but it's not true. Dennis' example of KGVL is one such. My home airport is another. NOTE: I am talking about "Airport Diagrams", with a capital A and a capital D....

Well, Cobra, you're usually right, and your explanation sounds plausible and certainly seems authoritative, so you're probably right about the capital letters A and D, too.

All I can say is that I found it in an FAA document:



Source: Airport Diagrams

I've also found a good many statements about how fouled up the FAA's use of the terminology is.
Beyond that, I think I'll sit the rest of this dance out. It's not my favorite tune, and I don't remember the lyrics.

Flying was lovely this afternoon, by the way. There were no hiccups in iFly 13.0.11 on iPad Mini 6. I did three water landings and flew a tight slalom around the Tar Bay Archipelago at 20 feet MSL. It was very satisfying.

 

[Cobra]

Looks like the FAA's not following their own rules, then.

That said, the order you cite is dated less than 3 years ago, which is not so long in government-movement terms (especially considering the congressional flailing regarding budget passage that has been in place for decades now that has ongoing ripple effects throughout the government).

I looked at the previous version of that order, and my home base did not meet its more complex criteria for an Airport Diagram, which explains why it didn't have one prior to 2021 at least.

It seems that the order you cite dictates that my airport should have its own Airport Diagram, and maybe one day it will happen. But that day has not yet come.